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Συνεδρίαση 27 Σεπτεμβρίου 2007, Βρυξέλλες

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Meeting of ACE work group on Cost Information Systems, WG-CIS ACE offices,

Bruxelles on Friday 27 september 2007

Present :

Apologies for absence:

Comments on previous minutes

There were none ;

Welcome to new members of the work group

Sophie Roland, Serban Tiganos, Damien Leniker, Thomas Maibaum and Domenico Podesta were welcomed to the group.
Sophie Rolland has been asked by ACE to prepare the groundwork for the ACE sector study which will included coverage of the subject of architect’s earnings.
Thomas Maibaum will replace Anton Bauch who we thank for his various useful contributions to our actions and debate.
Serban Tiganos, and Damien Lenicker from Rumania and Malta respectively, agree to be regular members of the WG CIS and hope to be able to make contributions to work done so far starting with task WGCost 1.
Domenico Podesta attended the meeting to assist Antonio Riverso to present the situation in Italy. Domenico is president of the legal department of the national chamber in Rome (CNAPPC).
It was agreed that new members, from countries that had not till now formed part of the Work Group, would be asked to fill in the questionnaire from Work group task one that established a syrvey of CIS in several countries. They would also be asked to make a presentation to the group at a future meeting

Presentation from the CNAPPC

The power point presentation prepared by Domenico Podesta and Antonio Riverso, from the Italian National Board of Architects, Landscape Planners and Curators was presented by Antonio Riverso. Since the BERSANI decree in 2006 that repealed all compulsory, fixed or minimum rates and fees, a vacuum has existed in Italy. The CNAPPC intends to fill this vacuum and has allowed six months to set up “service protocols” that comply with the Bersani decree and European resolutions.
Domenico Podesta and Antonio Riverso agreed to place the power point presentation on the work group’s internet forum and it was suggested at the end of the meeting that the next meeting should be held in Rome to explain experiences in different European countries to the CNAPPC council members. When they meet on 22 November this year.

New CIS in Austria

New CIS has been published recently in Austria and Johannes Schmidt. gave a power-point presentation to show  how  the final version has evolved over the past months. The new “HIA” system is based on hours of work required per M2 ( or m3 for industrial buildings), graphs can be accessed on the internet.

Task WGCost-2, 

The Work Group's Task 2 document, which is an assessment to “Evaluate whether it is possible to produce one or more harmonised systems” has been reviewed by Joe Miller. and a French version has been produced by Philippe Vermeren.
Discussion of the document led to some changes to the text and an update of conclusions. The revised document will be placed on the web site database in both versions.
Debate
The presence of new members in the work group and presentations from colleagues from Italy and in Austria led to renewed debate about aims and objectives.
While it was agreed that the work group needs to be in a position were it is able to give guidance, no one system can claim to be an unquestionably preferred system universally applicable in every circumstance. Recommendations made by the work group need to have this in mind and allow a multiplicity of approaches.
Three themes came back to the surface, illustrating the differing levels of development of CIS across Europe :
- Some countries still have fee scales contrived from market data gathered at one point in history while recently developed CIS shows that it is possible to use sophisticated statistical treatment of recent and repeatedly updated information.
- CIS can be based on project cost or on project size
- CIS devised in some nations favours the calculation of time spent by architects or “work input”, but percentages do have some advantages
Sven Silcher suggested that the Work group should build a matrix showing the various possible routes that can be taken by architects to arrive at a fee estimate. From this matrix a detailed analysis could be made showing the comparative advantage of each possible route and guidance could then be given in relation to the chosen route.
Further comparison would be advisable within a given country, between old and new  CIS, if a new system is produced.
Sven Siltcher agreed to produce an outline matrix for issue to, and comment from, all work group members.
After the debate, a review was made of work in hand. The following table has been updated to reflect progress;

Work in hand

ACTIONS: as stated             For: appraisal at next WG meeting

Other business

No additional items were raised.

Next meeting

22 & 23 November in Rome (from 14.30 on the 22 Nov.) at the CNAPPC offices
Post meeting note:
The CNAPPC have confirmed their kind invitation and propose the following programme of events:
Thursday 22 November
Late morning : Courtesy welcome by the CNAPPC
13,00 :  Lunch break
14,30 18,30 : WG work session with the CNAPPC including Sr. Nevio     Parmeggani, architect and president of the ministerial professional fees commission.
20,30 : Diner organised by the CNAPPC
Friday 23 November
9,30 12,30: WG work session
If necessary, we can continue our meeting in the afternoon and in informal sessions over the week end.

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