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Συνεδρίαση 18 Απριλίου 2007, Βρυξέλλες

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Meeting of ACE work group on Cost Information Systems, WG-CIS
ACE offices, Brussels on Friday 18 april 2007

Present :

Apologies for absence:

Comments on previous minutes

There were none ;

Preparation for the 8 June meeting in Madrid at the invitation of the CSCAE

The regional Orders in Spain, who are responsible for CIS, are at a crossroads with some regional orders in favour of new systems. The National Order has organised a symposium to debate these issues with the Spanish regions and has invited the CIS WG to make presentations to discuss different ways CIS is being prepared across Europe. Subject to availability of WG members, two or three presentations are possible from the following countries: Belgium, Austria, Ireland, Finland and France. The CSCAE will also invite a member of the ACE executive board to explain the wider political context of the work the CIS WG is undertaking.

Task WGCost-1, Follow up

For the Work Group's Task 1, the group has produced a report analysing the situation in each country represented by members of the work group.

A recommendation will be made to the executive board for the secretariat to issue the final document to member organisations, with a call for additional contributions.
ACTION: as stated             For: completion end April 2007

Task WGCost-2, 

 “Evaluate whether it is possible to produce one or more harmonised systems and assess the advantages and disadvantages of such systems”.
The following actions were decided at the meeting:
- Stephan Stouffs will revise the document and attempt to avoid the limitations that the word « harmonisation » places on the debate. The document should be able to stand alone without the annexes.  Target date : 1 may.
- Philippe Vermeren will produce a French version of the document. . Target date : 15 may.
- Joe Miller will edit the English version of the document to enhance clarity and add an updated version of the glossary. Target date : 15 may.
- An explanatory note will be written to present the document to the Executive Board.
ACTIONS: as stated

Task WGCost-3, Definition of future actions

After debate on what useful tools for ACE member organisations could be, the following draft programme of work was established for further discussion:
- Compilation of a list of available Time management software for architects. Ultimately, the document will aim to provide comparative appraisal of available software. This work will be led by Katarina Klepec.
- Kimmo Liimatainen will lead work on a document that will set out recommendations on how to collect information to produce CIS. In particular, guidance will be offered to member organisations setting up new CIS systems. While taking the view that different systems are not necessarily incompatible, a common format will enable comparison.
- Application to obtain EC funding to produce management tools for small and medium sized architect’s offices. Anton Bauch will provide guidance on funding sources starting from a shortlist of possible needs for resource management and time calculation by small practices. This shortlist will be provided initially by Philip Ridgway.
- Continued and enhanced information sharing of different national experiences with CIS. comparison, co-operation and mutual assistance. This activity is ongoing and involves all members of the workgroup.
- Comparison of different systems by application to a common sample project. Joe Miller will give thought to define how this can be done and how results can feed the debate on CIS.
- A case study on the implementation of new CIS in Austria. Johannes Schmidt agrees to provide an appraisal for the end of 2007 retracing experience in implementing new CIS in Austria.
- Updating the “ACE 1985 study on missions and fees, by Brian O’Connel”. Upon investigation it turns out that that document dates from 1995, the name of the author is uncertain.
At a future date, it may be possible to undertake a and analysis of results from the ACE sector study, especially if this includes statistics on how much time architects spend to do their work. In view of the complexity and the subjective nature of the tasks, it was decided that the WG would not monitor the award of public contracts for architects in several EC countries or give guidance on best practice to obtain highest quality for lowest price.
ACTIONS: as stated             For: appraisal at next WG meeting

CIS in France

Philip Ridgway gave a short presentation on the situation in relation to CIS in France. Two systems exist, with government published recommended fee scale used for Public projects and a series of standard appointments edited by the CNOA « Ordre des Architectes » that allow percentages fees while encouraging architects to estimate and charge for time spent during project stages. A tool for calculating hourly costs was shown to the WG.
A comparison between percentage fees and estimates of time spent on projects retraced the advantages of time estimates in arriving at fees despite the fact that reliable data is missing to determine the time it takes to accomplish project tasks. This is especially true for the majority of architect’s offices in France as they are small entities without significant office statistics on past projects.

CIS Forum on the ACE web site

Kimmo Liimatainen will liaise with Dominique Depasse and Caroline Andre from the ACE secretariat to determine if improvements can be made to communications via the Forum.

Next meeting

8 June in Madrid from 15.30 to 18.30 at the CSCAE offices (12 Paseo de la Castellana).
Presentations will be made in the morning to the Spanish regional Orders

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