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Συνεδρίαση 2 Μαρτίου 2007, Βιέννη

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Meeting of ACE work group on Cost Information Systems, WG-CIS

BAIK offices, Vienna on Monday 2 march 2007

Present :

Other participants :

Apologies for absence:

Thanks

Thanks was given to Johannes Schmidt and to BAIK for their invitation to hold the meeting in Vienna and for organisation of events.

Comments on previous minutes

ERRATUM, The description of the work input survey used in Finland should read:
“ At present, the system is based on 585 projects (out of 1867) over a five-year period, covering the size of projects, time spent and, for comparison, construction costs.”
Task WGCost-1, Follow up
Identification of information sources for CIS and analysis of existing best practice
For the Work Group's Task 1, the group has produced a draft report analysing the situation in each country represented by members of the work group.
The following actions have been accomplished since:
- The document has been issued to Pierre-Henri Schmutz (ACE coordinator thematic area 2), for comment.
- Some WG members have revised their contributions,
- Tonu Laigu has added a contribution from Estonia,
- The following actions are ongoing:
- Kataria Klepec will devise a list of words and concepts to form a glossary,
- Philip Ridgway will edit the document and attempt to achieve greater clarity,
- Conclusions will be drawn,
- A recommendation will be made to the executive board to issue the final document to member organisations, with a call for additional contributions.
ACTION: as stated For: end of march 2007 (issue of 2nd draft to WG & EB)

Task WGCost-2, Is it possible to harmonise cost information systems ?

 “evaluate whether it is possible to produce one or more harmonised systems and assess the advantages and disadvantages of such systems”.
For the Work Group's Task 2, the group has produced a detailed response to four questions.
The following actions were decided at the meeting:
- Stephan Stouffs will take the individual contributions and attempt to unify the document so that ideas form a single text. Target date 19 march.
- Rafael Pelicier will write an introduction for the document,
- Joe Miller will assist both Stephan and Rafael to edit the document so that it can be appraised by the WG prior to issue to the Executive Board.
ACTION: as stated For: end of march 2007 (issue of draft to WG)

Task WGCost-3, Definition of future actions

Discussions throughout the day gave rise to a number of ideas and debate about how best to produce useful tools for ACE member organisations.
It was decided to start work immediately on two areas:
- With the help of WG members, Katarina Klepec will compile a list of available Time management software for architects. This will include the PEP group of products in Germany and “coretime” favoured by the RIAI for it’s members. Ultimately, documentation will aim to provide comparative appraisal of available software.
- Kimmo Limatainen will start work on a document that will set out recommendations for collecting information to produce CIS.
Other possible actions could include:
- Guidance on EC funding to produce management tools for small and medium sized practices.
- Continued and enhanced information sharing of different national experiences with CIS. comparison, co-operation and mutual assistance.
- Comparison of different systems by application to a common sample project.
- Guidance on (and definition of) best practice to obtain highest quality for lowest price.
- A case study on the implementation of new CIS in Austria.
- Updating the ACE 1985 study on missions and fees, by Brian O’Connel.
- Monitoring the award of public contracts for architects in several EC countries.
- Analysis of results from the ACE sector study.
This list can be added to, but due to limited resources, the WG will need to produce a programme of work and focus attention on priority areas.
ACTION: WG to define priority areas For: at next WG meeting

CIS in Austria

At the last meeting, Johannes Schmidt gave an excellent oversight to the way the BAIK in Austria was going about setting up a new cost information system to replace the fee scales that are no longer acceptable to the national competition authority. As a follow up, discussions in Vienna with BAIK representatives gave insight into the workings of the independent research group and the choices that have led the BAIK to structure CIS on time spend in relation to the M2 surface area and complexity of projects rather than on construction costs.
It  was suggested  that the ACE CIS work group could assist the BAIK in two key areas:
1. Help in explaining the logic behind the new Austrian CIS when it is presented to future users, i.e. Architects in Austria.
2. Assistance if the new system encounters difficulties with the National competition authority.
Johannes Schmidt informed the WG of a forthcoming meeting in Berlin to compare the national situation in relation to CIS, In Germany, in Austria, and hopefully in Slovenia.

CIS in Switzerland

Daniel Kundig and Walter Mafroiletti from the SIA (Schweizerishher Ingenieur- und Architectenverien) were kind enough to come from Zurich to give a presentation and explain the workings of SIA 102 a standard for architect’s services and fees implemented in 2002 as a response to pressure from national competition authorities.
The WG discovered that this comprehensive system had taken only 3 months to produce since it is based on 25 years of research.
Fees are based on statistical surveys showing the relationship between time spent and building costs. Adjustments are made with coefficients and mathematical formulae to take into account variations including team structure, specialisation and macroeconomic factors (“conjoncture”).
Apparently the new system met with favourable reaction from all quarters as it has improved the perception of architects’ fees by client bodies and has helped stem the erosion of fees by allowing a better understanding of what fees represent.

CIS Forum on the ACE web site

If possible, the powerpoint presentation from Switzerland will be placed on the Forum, along with other presentations made at WG CIS meetings.
Johannes Schmidt will also place a copy of the Ehler report, voted on by the EC parliament on 12 October 2006.
It was also thought that the Forum could be a useful asset to correspond with representatives from ACE member organisations with interest in CIS. This would naturally include Daniel Kundig and Walter Mafroiletti, but also:
John Wright as chairman of the ACE WG for the SIM directive and Ian Prichard the RIBA president,
Darko Kramer of the COAC in Barcelona,
Harald Erickson from Norway,
Sven Silven as chairman of the UIA work group on CIS.
ACTION: to be defined  For: at the next meeting

Next meeting

19 April in Brussels from 10.30 to 16.30 at the ACE offices.
In addition to ongoing actions, a presentation will be made by Philip Ridgway on CIS in France and Tonu Laigu will explain the situation in Estonia.

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