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Συνεδρίαση 8 Νοεμβρίου 2006, Βρυξέλλες

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Meeting of ACE work group on Cost Information Systems, WG-CIS

ACE offices, Brussels on Thursday 8 nov 2006

Present :

Apologies for absence:

Welcome
New members: Katarina Keplec, Anton Bauch, Kimmo Limatainen and Johannes Schmidt, were welcomed to the work group.
Comments on previous minutes
No comments were made. 
Follow up to the 8 Oct 06 meeting with the Commission, DG comp.
After discussion, it was decided to make the following recommendations to the Board:
1) That the exchange of letters after the meeting, between ACE and DG comp, be copied to member organisations with an explanatory note.
2) That any response to DGcomp by ACE be decided after the conference "regulation in professional services" planned for 13 Dec 06.
3) That Anton Bauch represents our WG at this conference so that he can report proceedings at our next meeting.
ACTION: Philip Ridgway to send recommendations to the ACE secretariat for presentation to the Board. Anton Bauch to report at next WG meeting.
WG CIS recruitment
Stephan Stouffs was thanked for his successful actions to recruit new members to the group. It was agreed that representatives from member organisations in Poland and Latvia would be able to make valuable contributions to the WG. Holding a WG meeting in one of these countries next year could be helpful, as it will be necessary to brief new WG members on work in hand. Alain Sagne suggested that it would also be useful to share experiences with the AIA, but the best way to go about this was uncertain.
ACTION: Alain Sagne to make necessary contacts.
Fees questionnaire issued by WG competitiveness to ACE member organisations
Philip Ridgway reported a conversation with Wolfgang Haack commenting the results of a questionnaire issued by WG competitiveness in 2004. (a written evaluation was also issued prior to the meeting).
In conclusion, while findings have become rapidly out of date, all countries have recommended methods to calculate fees. Understandably, member organisations are sensitive about sharing information that is perceived as central to defending the interests of architects on a national level and in any case, it was generally felt that different systems could and should coexist.
CIS in Belgium and in Ireland
Stephan Stouffs and Joe Miller gave presentations giving the background to the situation as it is in their own country.
In particular, Stephan presented “ARCHIPREST”, a recent tool devised to assist architects to calculate their fees for work on individual houses. The tool is a spreadsheet using 30 parameters to define costs, all data can be modified and it also contains a task list with time rates. It is hoped to develop  this approach to give a good alternative to the compulsory fee scales that were abandoned in Belgium in 1996.
Joe explained the two recent fee surveys that have been carried out in Ireland with returns from 160 of the 500 practices asked to contribute. He stressed that the approach is most appropriate in the buoyant economic climate that his country enjoys. The survey will be conducted every three years and in future, it will be adapted and take on board the findings of cost management research that has been commissioned from SAGE to explore the notion of “Core time”.
CIS in Finland
Kimmo Limatainen agrees to make a presentation to explain how issues relating to CIS are dealt with in Finland.
ACTION:
Kimmo Limatainen                                                   For: Next meeting
CIS in Austria
Johannes Schmidt agrees to make a presentation to explain how issues relating to CIS are dealt with in Austria.
ACTION:
Johannes Schmidt                                                   For: Next meeting
Task WGCost-1, 
Identification of information sources for CIS and analysis of existing best practice
For the Work Group's Task 1, the group will produce a report analysing the situation in each country represented by members of the work group.
Each member will contribute a short (two page) text covering CIS and CIS development from a national perspective, in an attempt to give in depth insight to readers unfamiliar with experience in his or her country.
The following format was decided for this stocktaking exercise:
1) A short factual description covering,
How CIS is organised
How it is collected
How it is published
Whether or not fee scales have been compulsory
The date from which discussions for review have been undertaken.
2) Followed by a broad review for each country considered,
The historic development of CIS
The economic and business environment for architect's practice
The advantages and disadvantages of existing or recommended systems.
It  was agreed that each contribution would be undertaken before Christmas to allow time for the report to be compiled and edited for mid january.
Conclusions to the report will attempt to map out similarities and differences between national situations showing whether “clusters” exist in approaching ways to deal with CIS.
ACTION:
All WG members                                                    For: 15 December 2006
The structuring of cost information
It was generally agreed that the definition of CIS as comprising four essential elements: « overheads, salaries, time and profit » was satisfactory for present purposes. The WG will need to engage in wider debate on how to structure cost information, taking into account historical data, performance criteria, contractual obligations, costs of running an office….etc. Johannes Schmidt will table a short discussion paper on this topic.
ACTION: Johannes Schmidt                                 For: Next meeting
Exchange of information and communication between WG members
Kimmo Limatainen is very keen to see online communication set up between WG members and ideas about how best to do this were discussed. The ACE web site offers forums for the different Work Groups and Alain Sagne mentioned the possibility of asking the secretariat to run a data base. Actions shall, be planned at the next meeting.
Next meeting
17 January 07 from 10.30 to 16.30 at the ACE offices in Brussels.

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